Curse

Sifow Chan · Nov 13, 2009, 03:10 AM // 03:10

People saying go to JQ have to realize Kurzick have another bug in their favor there as well. The yellow Luxon rangers won't attack the Kurzick Juggernaut when it goes to the base while the yellow Kurzick rangers will attack the yellow turtle. Considering that in JQ, the yellow quarry is the most sought after and most defended, it makes it unfair that the Kurzicks have an easier time keeping the carrier alive.

As for the topic here, I think everything on the Kurzick side is fine, however I think the gate npcs should stop running out of the gate when it opens. On the Luxon side I think a few things need to be fixed. The turtles get stopped outside by Kurzicks sitting at the portals or the edge and they can be stopped by players outside, especially Defy Pain warriors who sit there and stall the turtle the whole time. I think they should give Luxons 3 warrior npcs and a necromancer npc or mesmer npc in the turtle group with degen hexes and maybe both barbs hexes for necro or backfire and empathy for mesmer. The npcs should also not stand so close to the turtle as they get wiped easily with aoe.

IronSheik · Nov 13, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

Snip

Or...instead of making the luxon caravan 5 enemies vs. Kurzick 1.

Fix the shrine?

Or you know, just give our caravan 5 eles for obi flame spike, thx.

Giga_Gaia · Nov 13, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Welcome to the 9000th topic about Fort Aspenwood. Here is yet another Luxon who's upset about losing all the time and wants an even easier win. First piece of advice: don't bring melee on Lux side, it makes you useless and you become a dead weight to your team. Second, pressure the monk/healer holding the gate. There is no way that a monk can keep both himself and the npc's alive with the turtles doing 300 damage every 10 seconds. Third, work together as a team. Too many times I see luxons just zerging in one after another without any coordination. One person cant take on the entire fort by themselves.

But we'll see what happens when they do their PvP update. I have a good feeling that Anet will be helping the Lux side... again.

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

I've been asked, by one of the posters, to continue my feedback&suggestions thread over here.

Here's the original post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

Greetings

I've been playing GW for a very long time years and covered every possible bit of PvP content this game has to offer. GW is the best PvP game out there, by far above others. I have been recently quite a lot at Fort Aspenwood, mostly as a Mesmer. The map is really great and I have a lot of fun but there are things which could be better, in my opinion.

The First Issue

The first thing is the Siege Turtle AI (Artificial Intelligence). In my opinion there should be some minor changes which will really make things much more fair (in my opinion the following suggestion is fair):

I believe the turtle should be trying to attack the Kurzick NPCs only. The fact is that one player, even quite incompetant, can keep the turtle in one place. It could be someone who's using the perch (standing on top of the wall) or just a person with a tanking build. The impact one person can have on the Luxon side is too big, in my opinion.

My suggestion is to make a small change to the Turtles' AI. The turtles should only be attacking Kurzick NPC and then there wont be a case of one person making such a serious impact all by himself.

You could say that its enough for one person (a monk) to keep healing the turtle and then its just a trade of 1 for 1 (one attacking and one healing). The fact you know so well is that there arent so many Monks who actually concentrate on healing and/or protecting. There are many damage (smite) builds currently among the monks at Fort Aspenwood.

There are many battles in which there arent two monks (protections and/or healing) to protect the two turtles. Even so, would you really expect them to want to stand and heal a turtle in one place for so long? It'll turn off quite a lot of people.

The Second Issue

The second issue with Fort Aspenwood, in my opinion, is the impact one healer and/or protector can have on the Luxons' ability to breach the walls (especially Protection monks). Amber can easily fix the walls, and that's fair in my opinion. However, without a coordinated strip (taking enchantments off) and a following spike, there's almost no chance (or no chance) of getting past that gate.

I'd have no problem with it unless it required such little effort on the Kurzick side. Its way too easily done and the impact one person has is way too much (in my opinion). Not to mention the fact that this person is standing behind a wall (gate). I believe the following suggestion is fair:

I suggest you create an NPC at the Luxon side (near the Resurrection point, and this NPC cant be killed). This NPC will provide a person with a special skill. This skill prevents enemy healers and/or protectors from healing that NPC or casting enchantments on it for 10 seconds (recharge 20 seconds. numbers are subject to change as you see fit). This skill could replace a skill from the skill bar, or just be an additional skill that people are able to take.

In case its an additional skill (a 9th skill), I suggest you make the NPC immune to the effects of another such spell for 10 seconds (subject to change, as you see fit).

Another suggestion, which is less fair in my opinion, is to prevent the Kurzicks from healing and/or protecting the gate NPCs at all (just the ones at the gates).

Conclusion

One of the bottom lines is that you can expect people to do certain things, and you could be right to ask them to do so. You could expect people to protect both turtles very often (and do that well), and you can expect people to coordinate strip and spike the NPCs guarding the gates.

Considering the avarage player at Fort Aspenwood, which is casual (which means "not so serious", in this case), I dont think its going to happen very often. In fact, I believe its going to be too rare to be fun. You would much more easily find people with solo builds who're willing to hold the siege turtle on their own (which is easily done, and very very very often too).

Here's the link to that short thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10412483

My reply to posts No. 7-9 will be posted here so the thread will be merged.

@ Shayne Hawk (post No.7)

The suggestions I provided here are very easy to implement and therefore I disagree with you.

@ Ironsheik (post No.8) and God Hand (post No.9)

First of all, why should someone create a map in which the D, R, W, A, and P are in such a disadvantage to begin with? I dont even want to mention the Jade Quarry since that is a topic onto itself.

I already said that the bonder is just one option of keeping the NPC alive, and frankly its not even the best option (far from it). There are many options and there's also another fact you cant deny: Most teams dont have more than one stripper, or they bring one who cant strip so well. A monk can keep the NPC alive even through one strong strip, and its also because people are generally not coordinated with each other.

If you have no problem with a team bringing Rend Enchantments, why would you be against my suggestion then? My suggestion is a bit similar and its open for discussion, of course. Hopefully it gets implemented. I have my hopes but I dont expect anything.

Hoping for a team that's coordinated enough to use a good strip AND have two monks (who're not smiters) who can keep the turtles alive is to ask for too much. Too much compared to the casual nature of the avarage person fighting there. You can always blame the people, or adapt to the situation at hand. My suggestions are possible ways of adapting to the situation at hand.

Replies to posters from this thread

@ Mesmerist Man (regarding the original post):
I disagree about the monk suggestion because the problem is also protection, and not just healing. I disagree about the time limit because it'll only make bad fights worse. The battles should stay 15 minutes, in my opinion. I believe that switching side isnt the solution. Introducing another map in which its quite the opposite could be a better idea, in my opinion.

@ Divine Ashes and Pugs Not Drugs (posts No.4 and 5):
Even a decent protections monk can easily overcome at least one strip, considering the "amazing" degree of coordination on the Luxons side. Furthermore, he can easily overcome many forms of damage, and even easily so. The fact is that, compared to him being just one player, he can have a very serious impact on the battle's results. That impact originates, mostly, from the map's design and not his own skill. Throw in the easy way in which the Kurzicks fix the gate AND bring the NPCs back. What do you get? A very serious impact, and again, its mostly about design and not skill.

@ Hyperventilate (post No.9):
If the monk was a very very bad player it could be true. Getting a decent monk (sometimes two) on the other side can easily dictate a Kurzick win, in many cases. Most of my comments about monks can be seen in my reply to posts No.4 and 5.

I totally agree about the turtles, but I still think my suggestion is slightly better.

@ Giga Gaia (post No.23):
You're right, the Luxons (and/or Kurzicks) should be organised and they can win that way, but is it realistic? Fort Aspenwood is filled with casual players and expecting them to be organised isnt realistic. Its rare. Very rare. Very rare that many players on either side become very organised. Bearing that in mind, perhaps we should do something to make it more fair?

Fair, in my opinion, is when every side has a chance to win based on player skill. If both side are filled with casuals, then the teams will be more or less equal in many battles (not all of them, of course). To do that you should reward players for their skill. When someone, as an individual, has a very serious impact because of the map's design (and not because of his skill), this isnt fair. Its also less fun that way, and eventually results in lesser popularity on the losing side.

IronSheik · Nov 14, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Why make a map where all physicals are disadvantaged? That's like asking why make skills that damper physicals, doesn't make sense.

Let's talk about meta PvE also. DoA, Urgoz, Deep. Those only use physical tanks at the most.

And rangers are actually some of the best at FA on luxon side, Tranquility/Nature's Renewal/EoE place around gunther assure almost a fast spike and easy win.

Kurzick monks are not as imba as you make them out to be, run shadow shroud and -% healing skills, or be good and pressure the hell out of them. And instead of rend try the old well of profane, every luxon ele/necro should bring it.

Turtles are garbage to an actual coordinated team, as I said, the 4 warriors with the turtle apply more pressure. Granted the turtle's AI sucks and does need to be fixed, you do not by far need them.

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

There's more than one occasion (at Fort Aspenwood) in which the R, P, D, A and W are at a disadvantage, while many others can be great at all times. I refer to the luxon side here, mostly. Getting rid of obstacles, like the gates, would really help make things better for those classes. Just to be clear about it, I dont suggest taking them out entirely. I believe my suggestions are enough.

The strip part is more about being realistic. To take advantage of it you need good coordination. To make it more realistic for a casual team (since that's what you get at Fort Aspenwood 99% of the time), you need to give them time to react. That's why I suggested getting a strip that keeps that NPC stripped and not being healed for 10s (with a cooldown of 20s, any number is subject to change).

The key word here is "realism". You could always say "what if", but if you talk about things that are rarely happening, if at all, what's the points in discussing them?

The last aspect, which still remains, is that the kurzicks can easily have a very serious impact individually. Not only that, but that impact isnt originating from their own skill, but mostly from the map's design. If it was just about skill, then I'd have no problem with it. Lets not forget that the Kurzicks can easily fix the gates, and they often do.

There were really good fights where the two sides had good monks (neither was keeping any special NPC alive, except the turtle) and a decent team too. Sure, it doesnt happen often, but its great fun when it does. I dont care much about losing or winning. I want to have fun. I have fun when it all depends on player skill, and its impossible for an individual or two to make a serious change just because of the map's design.

God_Hand · Nov 14, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Here's what needs to happen, in my eyes:

Siege Turtles
-Level down to 20
-Remove Carrier's Defense
-Tone down Siege Turtle Attack
-If you are not the specific target of the turtle, you don't lose an enchantment when hit by it

Luxon Warriors
-Remove Staggering Blow
-Remove "Coward!"

Luxon Longbows
-Remove Pin Down

Kurzick Mine Cleansers
-Remove Displacement

Kurzick Elementalists
-Remove Sliver Armor
-Remove Ward Against Melee

Kurzick Necromancers
-Remove Reckless Haste

Kurzick Juggernaut
-Level down to 20

Kurzick Mesmers
-Remove Complicate

Master Architect Gunther
-Level down to 20
-Remove Protector's Defense

Just my 2 cents.

Pauli · Nov 14, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

@ God Hand

In my opinion:

- Leave the turtle as it is right now. The turtle, right now, has a normal player's HP (or a very very similar amount of HP). The turtle requires a lot of protection to stay alive, so I dont see why it should be toned down.

- I hardly recall any battle in which the Luxon Warriors survived that long, much less gained a lot of adrenaline to use the skills you mentioned. I dont think they should be changed.

- Leave Rangers on both the same as they are now. I dont think they're overpowered or have more impact than they were intended to have.

- The Displacement spirit dies pretty quick and delays attackers from taking the shrine that fast. I believe it shouldnt be changed.

- In my opinion the Kurzicks guarding the gate should be offensive but not that defensive. Their defense is also against attackers only. Combined with perches and walls to hide behind, I dont think there should be another disadvantage to being an attacker in this map.

- In my opinion the Kurzick Necromancers guarding the gate should only be degenerating and casting damage spells/hexes. That way they'd hurt everyone in the same way and not mostly the attackers with their hexes.

- In my opinion the Juggernaut dies pretty fast and there's no need to make it weaker.

- I agree about Protector's Defense being mostly against attackers. That additional disadvantage isnt needed, in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

Not the Dervish, he can tank and kill the balling luxon warriors well. Although the turtle is a major annoyance for all enchantment based builds since it removes enchantments.

@topic
onesided arguments in favor of the luxons so far

You complain about Kurzick monks protecting gates, what about Luxon monks protecting turtles? Just as powerful, whereas protected gates can be countered in 99% of the cases with a single well of the profane. No prot spirit on the gate's npc = dead npc. Protected turtles are way harder to kill.

If anything, the enchantment removal from the turtle needs to be removed again, it has made quite a number of builds that rely on their enchantments to function unplayable and bringing useless cover enchantments is very annoying and also doesn't always work.

Then the fact that the turtles can't be interrupted anymore even by 2 interrupts or psychic distraction is retarded, too. In a felt 70% of the time you fire up to 3 interrupts at the turtle without interrupting it, and in 30% of the time 1 interrupt does the job, for reasons I don't get, maybe someone else fired 3 interrupts at it before and yours was actually the 4th, it is a bug, or whatever, but it's ridiculous. 2 interrupts should reliably interrupt a turtle, not 1 like before, but 2.

Then the turtle still deals the same amount of damage through walls since aspenwood day 1, its range ignores objects, you can't take cover.

Then there is a bug that sometimes spawns twice as many Luxon warriors on one side, I believe 8 instead of the usual 4. That should be fixed, too.

Luxon monks are able to keep the turtle alive, but the turtle can be rendered totally useless by just one person attacking from the perch. That person can easily keep himself alive with a solo build and the turtle wont move an inch. It could easily last 12-13 minutes.

The gates can also be restored with Amber, which is a very very easy option. Furthermore, turtles take a lot of time to spawn again, and they dont spawn if someone took control of their post.

Its not retarded that the turtles cant be interrupted for the reasons mentioned above, combined with the fact that the turtle doesnt really shoot so often.

There's a limit to the Turtle's damage radius. A monk can easily sit there in the back and keep himself and the NPC alive for a very long time. All you have to do is have a decent build and decent skill. Decent people are common, and the only question remains: Do they want to play a monk? Not every person wants to play a monk.

I'll conclude by quoting myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

The last aspect, which still remains, is that the kurzicks can easily have a very serious impact individually. Not only that, but that impact isnt originating from their own skill, but mostly from the map's design. If it was just about skill, then I'd have no problem with it. Lets not forget that the Kurzicks can easily fix the gates, and they often do.

There were really good fights where the two sides had good monks (neither was keeping any special NPC alive, except the turtle) and a decent team too. Sure, it doesnt happen often, but its great fun when it does. I dont care much about losing or winning. I want to have fun. I have fun when it all depends on player skill, and its impossible for an individual or two to make a serious change just because of the map's design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Look at GvG. Splitting into a base and engaging the same split number + 1 archer (which as far as PvP builds go has terrible skills and low damage) puts the offense at a disadvantage. Two Mind Blast e/d's vs 2 knights and 1 runner with a snare has often ended in the runner's favor. When teams are on equal footing the defenders have a huge advantage.

This is just never an issue in FA play as the random matchings and no organization ensure that no teams of equal footing will ever see each other in the arena. However its kind of fundamental to game design that there is no way to perfectly balance an attack/defend styled map; it is either going to be stacked for the offense or stacked for the defense, no other way around it.

Perfect balance isnt what I'm after. I'm after a match that will mostly be influenced by the team's skill. Look at the way I concluded my reply to Animate (in this post). I think you'll see what I'm after. My suggestions are simple and easy to implement and therefore I hope they get implemented. I dont expect anything, but I have hope.

God_Hand · Nov 15, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

Perfect balance isnt what I'm after. I'm after a match that will mostly be influenced by the team's skill.

Well that's easy. Just tone down the effectiveness of the NPC's, decreasing the effect they have on the fight. It is then up to the players to make up for that lost effectiveness, because the players will have more bearing on what happens in the fight if the NPC's aren't as powerful.

For starters, take my other suggestions a few posts up.

Giga_Gaia · Nov 15, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Here's what needs to happen, in my eyes:

Luxon Warriors
-Remove Staggering Blow
-Remove "Coward!"

Luxon Longbows
-Remove Pin Down

Kurzick Mine Cleansers
-Remove Displacement

Kurzick Elementalists
-Remove Sliver Armor
-Remove Ward Against Melee

Kurzick Necromancers
-Remove Reckless Haste

Kurzick Mesmers
-Remove Complicate

Master Architect Gunther
-Level down to 20
-Remove Protector's Defense

Just my 2 cents.

But then most of the npc's would have almost no skills to use... also, Gunther needs to get rid of "WY!" or revert to PvE version, and replace Charge with Defy Pain lol. Let's see how the wammos like playing against their own tanking builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

@ Giga Gaia (post No.23):
You're right, the Luxons (and/or Kurzicks) should be organised and they can win that way, but is it realistic? Fort Aspenwood is filled with casual players and expecting them to be organised isnt realistic. Its rare. Very rare. Very rare that many players on either side become very organised. Bearing that in mind, perhaps we should do something to make it more fair?

Really? I've always seen more coordination on Kurzick side... everyone knows they have a role and the right build (usually) to do it. I've actually managed to organize and form a body block once in front of the green gate with my team. When I play Luxon... not so much, everyone plays like a bunch of zombies, blindly rushing into the fort by themselves.

However, given Anet's track record of helping Luxons and nerfing Kurzicks, it's very likely that Luxons will get another buff when this PvP update comes around.

IronSheik · Nov 15, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Lol, remove all anti melee in the whole match? Melee are strong, that's why there are so many counters. Removing the ward and prot defense is asinine. If you want to remove that, give gunther defy pain and discipined stance/

Turtles are fine, your change god hand would make them squishies. Constant -28 damage and a strong AoE attack is all that keeps them alive. You just need to fix the AI range.

And pauli sorry but, almost no PvP type in GW relies on skill. It's large majority cookie cutter and who can run the counter meta.

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

@ God Hand

Your suggestions dont take care of the basic problem which is the way Players influence NPCs, ad not the other way around. Your suggestions wont make such a serious impact because the NPCs alone dont have such a serious impact. Its their ability to survive that matters greatly and that originates from players. I replied to that post in which your offered your suggestions.

@ Giga Gaia

I said "Luxons and/or Kurzicks". There are battles in which the Kurzicks are more organised and there are fights in which they're less. Luxons are usually disorganised, that's true. I can barely remember even one fight in which they were organised. Its a shame, really.

I'm not looking for any buff. I just hope my suggestions are going to be implemented. They're simple, easy to implement, and will make things much more dependant on skill, rather than the map's design (compared to the way its now).

@ Iron Sheik

There's no way they're going to remove all anti melee options, at least according to my suggestions. Rangers' (NPCs) Cripple stays, Kurzicks have gates (which can still be fixed) and perches, you often see bonders on the other side and the Blind condition is used often. All those things have great influence on attackers but will barely (or not at all) hinder casters.

You say "Removing the ward and prot defense is asinine", and yet you totally disregard the fact that AoE Fire Es (or even a Ray of Judgement Mo) kill them faster than any melee ever would. They do so better than any D, R, P, A or W. Furthermore, that E can kill them without them being able to do anything at all, while the attackers will take quite a lot of damage from them, potentially. None of the above counters the fact that a decent Kurzick Mo can keep the NPC alive too easily and not because of skill.

HA, GvG and the CA rely on skill. There's no meta at the CA. GvG is, often, more than just build wars. You also still dont know what will be your enemies' builds. HA builds vary and you cant say that King of the Hill or Capture Points dont force you to make decisions (which means it involves skill).

Last Words (for this post)

I'm going to repeat myself here, but this point is very important:

Winning or losing isnt the issue here. I dont care about losing that much. IF the Kurzicks are really organised and/or more skilled than the Luxon side, then so be it. Let me lose multiple times. Dont let me lose because just because one person, individually, made a very serious impact because of the map's design and not because of his skill.

Lifestyle · Nov 15, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

To say that no PvP in GW relies on skill is laughable.

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I pretty much have to agree about that.

BlackSephir · Nov 15, 2009, 10:06 AM // 10:06

The only thing I'd change would be to make the turtle teams resp after a while after the turtle dies, not turtle + 3 warriors.
Waiting for that 1 pinhead die while he's standing god knows where is kinda annoying.

No, I don't have time to spell it out for you.

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

You'll have to excuse me, but I dont understand what is it you want. Can you please explain your post again, or in detail?

prinzess of life · Nov 15, 2009, 10:46 AM // 10:46

My suggestion to fix fort Aspenwood is something completly new. Change the game mechanics of it !

We all know that Gunther is creating a godly weapon... and to do this he needs a certain amount of time. That's completly wrong - what he should need is Amber.

If the Kurzicks own all 3 amber mines the progression of building that weapon should be triple speed, if they own 2 mines double speed, 1 mine single speed - no mine at all = no progression!

Instead of hiding behind gates keeping one single NPC alive they would actualy have to go out and do something to win...

Running amber should still repair the gates and giving it to gunther should make the weapon be build faster...

I also would introduce some sort of (Victory or Death) mechanics , by opening every gates when the weapon creation hits 90%.

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 11:03 AM // 11:03

That's one of the most interesting ideas I've ever seen (for Fort Aspenwood). There are things to consider, though:

- Turtles will be devalued, unless they help with the mines.

- Fixing the gates wont be as important because it would mostly be about capturing external points.

- The winning condition will make it quite impossible for the Luxons because their forces will have to spread thin, instead of concentrating. I dont even want to mention the degree to which the casual players there are really organised. Lets not even start discussing appropriate builds and/or decision making.

- Spreading the forces that much will probably make the big battles less frequent (or even rare). Big battles, in which many of the players and/or NPC are involved, is one of the things that makes Fort Aspenwood special compared to the AB and the Jade Quarry.

The AB is also made of premades, I'm aware of it, but the battle itself is about capturing and holding points that are quite far from each other. The Jade Quarry is more or less the same. Fort Aspenwood is, however, about battles in which many people (and/or NPC) fight at the same area (quite often).

One of the reasons I'm playing at Fort Aspenwood is that I'm quite tired of "Cap Wars Online" (AB, JQ). I like the aspect of actually fighting people instead of chasing cappers. I like the idea of people having to fight to get something instead of sneaking around all day long (which many do at the JQ or the AB).

Darkobra · Nov 15, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

All it takes is one mesmer to bring down a monk healing behind gates. Less warriors, more enchant removers. Then you'd need to hope you get a good team that attacks the gates rather than the ranger running around in circles. That one's a rare one there.

prinzess of life · Nov 15, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

All it takes is one mesmer to bring down a monk healing behind gates. Less warriors, more enchant removers. Then you'd need to hope you get a good team that attacks the gates rather than the ranger running around in circles. That one's a rare one there.

Why is everybody always talking about taking out a monk? A Ritualist can keep a Juggernaught alive much better than a monk and he doesnt use enchantments.. also a mesmer can not do much about it when a ritualist put's a weaopon spell on the Juggernaught....